Curse

dracolord · Jan 13, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Well, after seeing all this, A Net is probably benefitting even more than just saving the economy. Because a majority of these 117 people were probably rich to start with, this is a large money sink.... Just an idea, but its possible

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

what? whats the point? they break eula.... they are all subject to punishment also. ok they dont have the man power. but its these breaches of user agreement which made these 117 think it may be ok to exploit mallyx. wrong i know but you cant punish one without the other.counter argue all you want.
they cant punish one without the other...no matter the seriousness. if you do wrong you get punished to my knowledge...
ethics morals and the law all stand by what i say.
all of the "minor offenses" still are profiteeering and exploits. get off my back and let me help these guys

If you think they deserve to be un-banned because you can cite a bot that has not been banned, then I dont know what to say. Astonishes me really.

Its the same reason you can speed past a cop sitting in a speed trap and not get yourself a ticket. Part of it requires identification of the offender, as well as intent, as well as a means of capture, seriousness of the offense.

Bots are harder to identify as such. If Anet had the manpower, they'd ban all bots. They wish to. They just cant identify all of them, track all of them and get that done, but they ban all the ones they can and have been doing that for ages now. There's still more coming in than they can give a speedy exit to.

Now along comes someone like one of the 117, leaving a nice trail in the logs that is ridiculously obvious, exploiting a high end boss for large monetary gain and its easy for them to see. What did you think Anet was going to do? Ignore them and let them continue because they havent gotten rid of all the bots? What do you think the policeman in the speed trap is going to do when his or her radar detects a speeder and they get a call about an armed robbery? Its not a valid argument you are making.

Some criminals deserve to be caught. Some of the excuses are also very entertaining, and games imitate real life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirJackassIII

Though last time I checked, ANet bans bots as well. They just keep coming back...so that really doesn't go unpunished.

They can come back too, Anya. Unfortunately.

high priestess anya · Jan 13, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

If you think you deserve to be un-banned because you can cite a bot that has not been banned, then they should also ban your ip so you cant come back and make another account.

Its the same reason you can speed past a cop sitting in a speed trap and not get yourself a ticket. Part of it requires identification of the offender, as well as intent, as well as a means of capture, seriousness of the offense.

Bots are harder to identify as such. If Anet had the manpower, they'd ban all bots. They wish to. They just cant identify all of them, track all of them and get that done, but they ban all the ones they can and have been doing that for ages now. There's still more coming in than they can give a speedy exit to.

Now along comes someone like you, leaving a nice trail in the logs that is ridiculously obvious, exploiting a high end boss for large monetary gain and its easy for them to see. What did you think Anet was going to do? Ignore you and let you continue because they havent gotten rid of all the bots? What do you think the policeman in the speed trap is going to do when his or her radar detects a speeder and they get a call about an armed robbery?

Some criminals deserve to be caught. Some of the excuses are also very entertaining, and games imitate real life.

And you can come back too, Anya. Unfortunately.

as far as im aware ANET's drop off point means i get my account back...
im not here for myself. an unban would be justified for me i will be getting what i deserve. the others deserve the ban if they repeatedly farmed mallyx and i back the ban. i am merely pointing out that ANET cannot punish one without the other. ethics and morals bla bla...
the aim of my last few posts is focused on better policing of the game, not ...unbanning...

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

as far as im aware ANET's drop off point means i get my account back...
im not here for myself. an unban would be justified for me i will be getting what i deserve. the others deserve the ban if they repeatedly farmed mallyx and i back the ban. i am merely pointing out that ANET cannot punish one without the other. ethics and morals bla bla...

Well, and I am pointing out they already do punish bots, as well as pointing out that a mugger getting away doesnt mean a bank robber should. Police catch who they see and can, and so does Anet. Just because its sometimes harder to see and catch a mugger in the act, and there are so many more of them, compared to a monitored big-stage activity like bank robbing, doesnt mean police ignore the one and only go after the other.

Fril Estelin · Jan 13, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

I think that there's a beautiful book to write about this story.

Tiel: "How Mallyx killed my GW account"
Chapter 1. Presentation of Guild Wars and Anet
Chapter 2. The hack and the guys that exploited the server vulnerability
Chapter 3. The reaction of Anet and the GW population
Chapter 4. Morale of the story

I'd like to see a Chapter3.5 where people go to trial against Anet. I'm pretty sure they'd loose and that would make a strong precedent for GW2. The business of EULAs is a strong one in the law and I'd be surprised that Anet and NCSoft could be beaten at that "game" (no offense to lawyers).

We've spent too much time circling over the same topics, just written differently. It'd be good that everyone stops for a day or two, maybe spend that time re-reading calmly this thread, and that Anet comes back to us revealing the extent of the "affair". I'm waiting for the next announcement, because on the side of the exploiters I don't see any progress at all since around page 50.

zwei2stein · Jan 13, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

... but its these breaches of user agreement which made these 117 think it may be ok to exploit mallyx. ...

WRONG. They obviously knew it was wrong.

They knew that Duncan ferry was fixed asap. That is huge hint

Thus, they knew that it was serious enough that anet would fix it once it went public.

They were very secretive about it. Why be so secretive? Because it would be fixed.

If they knew it was due to be fixed, they knew they were abusing bug. Hence, "QQ, i am innocet, i didnt know it was wrong" does not work at all.

How the hell should anet react to people who found bug, exploited it and were secretive about it?

---

55 on its own is not a breach. botting is. 55 is lame, but legal. And anet actually bans bots.
Running to get max armor is completelly fine with anet since day 1.
Duncan (and tele-anywhere) was fixed asap - it was actually cue that anet does not like people skipping content to get rewards.

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

We've spent too much time circling over the same topics, just written differently. It'd be good that everyone stops for a day or two, maybe spend that time re-reading calmly this thread, and that Anet comes back to us revealing the extent of the "affair". I'm waiting for the next announcement, because on the side of the exploiters I don't see any progress at all since around page 50.

Yeah, lol, I am actually regretting entering this topic this am, as I had avoided it for days now. Its strangely... addictive, and endlessly fascinating, just like those rags in the supermarket that shock me when someone picks them up to read them.

Honestly, my position was best summed up in my single post some pages back now and I should have stopped somewhere around there. I'm just amazed so much by the positions of some I read that I really want to reply. M..u..s..t not.

Dev121 · Jan 13, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Forum rants only get people frustrated because everyones too blind to read everything, yes I do it too but if your responding to people and having a go either dont or please understand what their saying. Youll only get yourself as mad as them when they dont listen to you either.
What we can learn from this thread:
People dont like to be mis-read
People like to mis-read
Mis-reading is the problem of this thread
Anets relation team sucks and also mis-read
Guild Wars is still poorly managed

If your banned concentrate on something else, yes you will feel robbed and all that stuff but just move on. You made a mistake and now your paying for it. Sue anet if you want, maybe it'll get a new management team and be a good thing but until then just get on with it.

Messy · Jan 13, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

Originally Posted by high priestess anya
GWG team doing an excellent job :P
sorry for one liner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

What? Defending Anet? Come now. Have you ever read any of my posts? I complain about Anet as much as I praise them. Depends on the issue. If you disagree with Anet in this case fine. Dont take it out on those who happen to agree.

I think she/he means that Guild Wars Guru Mods are all over this thread deleting inappropriate posts, doing their job quite well.

Inde said no names, no outing, no one liners.... so those keep getting deleted. People keep posting but we are not advancing page-wise. Posts are being deleted faster than they are being posted.

I say Kudos Mods!!

Fril Estelin · Jan 13, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

read my last 20 posts....
you cant join in half way through an argument unless you are psychic

Actually zwei2stein's argument stands on its own, unrelated to the previous 105 pages, and it's a very strong one. IIRC Gaile mentioned that some people sold this ferrying and asked people to keep it secret (source: here). So that automatically makes more suspicious the comparison with previous exploits and it surely does sound wrong when people want to get out of the "guilty" box. It looks like "intent" in a legal framework, though I'm not versed into this domain.

When we'll look back at this thread later, it'll be amazing to see how many people may have been lying around. This is the "internet anonymized me" effect that script kiddies used... until they realised that they could be located exactly located.

*knock knock on the door Excuse me sir, do you own the computer that had the IP address 123.456 from ISP fastNet?*

new GW version:
*Err045 you've been perma-banned* *goes to webforums to complain and make his case* *sorry the case is closed and you're guilty!*

high priestess anya · Jan 13, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Actually zwei2stein's argument stands on its own, unrelated to the previous 105 pages, and it's a very strong one. IIRC Gaile mentioned that some people sold this ferrying and asked people to keep it secret (source: here). So that automatically makes more suspicious the comparison with previous exploits and it surely does sound wrong when people want to get out of the "guilty" box. It looks like "intent" in a legal framework, though I'm not versed into this domain.

When we'll look back at this thread later, it'll be amazing to see how many people may have been lying around. This is the "internet anonymized me" effect that script kiddies used... until they realised that they could be located exactly located.

*knock knock on the door Excuse me sir, do you own the computer that had the IP address 123.456 from ISP fastNet?*

new GW version:
*Err045 you've been perma-banned* *goes to webforums to complain and make his case* *sorry the case is closed and you're guilty!*

yes you are right. and this is permabannable and i agree with that. im just stating the other breaches which have gone unpunished to show why these guys have been more "willing" to exploit the bug in doa
please read my last 20 posts before quoting me
you guys seem to think i am guilty also

Aera Lure · Jan 13, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

[B]
I think she/he means that Guild Wars Guru Mods are all over this thread deleting inappropriate posts, doing their job quite well.

Inde said no names, no outing, no one liners.... so those keep getting deleted. People keep posting but we are not advancing page-wise. Posts are being deleted faster than they are being posted.

I say Kudos Mods!!

Ohhhh. lol. Then as opposed to editing my post, I shall simply bang my head against the table here to knock a little sense into it. *bang*

Feel better already. And yes, kudos to the mods on this one, certainly.

high priestess anya · Jan 13, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

the length of this thread goes to show that this issue isnt black and white and no one solution solves all. ethics and morals come into play, the who is more guilty and the who deserves what punishment seem to be in set as a decision and not a total mass ban.this whole thread can help anet providing the people involved get there say without being ridiculed even further...these guys know they did wrong and have been punished. let them get their point out.
my fave quote of all time is "jumping to conclusions starts wars" its so true it hurts
sounds so funny when someone with a lisp says it also ><

Mickey · Jan 13, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Mess WithMe

Sorry but I am still quite confused....

so what you are saying is after you killed Mallyx you had to get the quest again.. BUT... WHERE did you get the quest from?? I'm guessing the *official* post, DOA?? since the *unofficial* one did NOT have any NPC's.

If this is what needed to be done... how can anybody claim they didn't know...

You go to DOA get the quest
You go to your GH or Party leader's GH
you MAP to this post that you can not access any other way
and you Kill Mallyx again

hmmmmm did no bells ring???

Well, 1. Complete all areas first 2. Either A. Go to Guild Hall and get Ferried or B. Resign then go to Guild Hall and get to outpost (not confirmed, friend told me then leprekan said it here 3. Kill Mallyx 4. Get reward inside the mission 5. Ferrier goes to the guild hall 6. Other party members get quest 7. Go to Guild Hall 8. Ferrier takes you to the outpost 9. Ferrier gets quest 10. People go back to guild hall, to pick up the ferrier 11. Back to outpost 12. Repeat.

3 times per run. And if Anet is running their bans off "profit" rather than "times accessed outpost" we will be seeing alot of unbans next week.

When my friend told me that you could access it via resign, I immediately thought, "oh, so you can just try again." I hadn't been to Zellix or w/e his name again except for the quest reward/quest.

Btw, congrats Anya, I hope you get your account back. Even the hope of getting an account back right now is good enough for a congrats.

Clait · Jan 13, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pablo24

The client saves the ZoneID of the zone you are in somehow. If by some weird error which I have already encountered the client thinks you are in an outpost even though you are in an explorable area, then it will save that ZoneID and if you relog you get into the Mallyx outpost! I already had that problem twice with other areas and I also simulated it for the Mallyx outpost which did indeed get me there. This was by the way how I figured out the teleport into instance exploit which is still not fixed

This way of getting to the Mallyx outpost (as well as other outposts) is clearly a bug not an exploit. Anet said they fixed the problem in the previous post, however if this does indeed work.. it hasn't been fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

I tried it. And it's not working for me. Are you sure that it wasnt because of a previous visit to the Ebony Citadel that allows this?

That method your quoting doesn't work since the patch. Only Anet can test its accuracy now.

high priestess anya · Jan 13, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

this was my response to PlayNC's report saying that i was banned with good reason:

i went to the affected area but only proceeded to mallyx once. i did not ferry people to the location. i didnt know how to.the one time i actually went to mallyx from this location was once and i left mid battle. i gained nothing from the bug therefore didnt "exploit" its vulnerability.
i thank you for taking the time to assess this.
my defense is that i didnt think going to the area was permabannable as it itself holds no personal gain hence the reason why i was going there as i didnt think i was "exploiting" it. using it for no other means than to see friends...yes. there to make a profit...no.
i hope you have the means to see that i ddint profit and i hope you check the chat logs back to 5 weeks ago wheni was pleading with all my friends not to do this as it was bannable.
once again. thank you guys for taking the time to do this but please let me know if the fact that just being there with no intention of making a profit is perma- bannable.

also note the meaning of "exploit".

Mickey · Jan 13, 2008, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

this was my response to PlayNC's report saying that i was banned with good reason:

i went to the affected area but only proceeded to mallyx once. i did not ferry people to the location. i didnt know how to.the one time i actually went to mallyx from this location was once and i left mid battle. i gained nothing from the bug therefore didnt "exploit" its vulnerability.
i thank you for taking the time to assess this.
my defense is that i didnt think going to the area was permabannable as it itself holds no personal gain hence the reason why i was going there as i didnt think i was "exploiting" it. using it for no other means than to see friends...yes. there to make a profit...no.
i hope you have the means to see that i ddint profit and i hope you check the chat logs back to 5 weeks ago wheni was pleading with all my friends not to do this as it was bannable.
once again. thank you guys for taking the time to do this but please let me know if the fact that just being there with no intention of making a profit is perma- bannable.

also note the meaning of "exploit".

ex·ploit (ĕk'sploit', ĭk-sploit') pronunciation
n.

An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See synonyms at feat1.
tr.v., -ploit·ed, -ploit·ing, -ploits. (ĭk-sploit', ĕk'sploit')

1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See synonyms at manipulate.
3. To advertise; promote.

I like the first one

Tbh, Anya, you deserve your account back. Others won't be so lucky.

SirJackassIII · Jan 13, 2008, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

3 times per run. And if Anet is running their bans off "profit" rather than "times accessed outpost" we will be seeing alot of unbans next week.

In your case, you'd have 21 turn to 7 (as you yourself said unless I misseda few posts where it went up again) or more since you might have attempted to kill Mallyx but failed (attemp is a valid go as well).
That's still higher than the apparent bar of 4. The people that might be unbanned are the ones that did it once or twice, to see how it's done and reported it to ANet. Which are the people that actually deserve to be unbanned.

And if it's indeed a bug, you still exploited it (repeadedly), which still puts you up for a ban.

Maca · Jan 13, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I really don't know what are you all trying to do here. Anet never banned ppl for anything ( not for Duncan, not for pre-searing thing..list is long), the fact that they done this now just shows how serous this thing was. Think about it, what would you do if you find out that someone has hacked your pc? Would you be furious, mad, would you like to find that person and punish him/her? I know I sure would. I was banned in WOW and I am still not sure why,I tryed to find out the reason, and gave up at the end and got new acc. ANet is trying to talk to you guys, trying to explain why they have to do this, if this happened in WOW Blizzard would bann the whole server without any explanation ( keep in mind this is a pay to play game). Maybe the problem is that ANET wasn't so firm with other things, so ppl thought this will go unpusnished as all things before it did, but you can't say this is unfair. Someone did hack the server, I am sure in this, since I really don't see the reason why would they lie about it, they never did before, they just said exploit was there and now it's not for all other things that you say are the same as this one. I would really like someone to explain me why would they lie about a hack?

Messy · Jan 13, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

Well, 1. Complete all areas first 2. Either A. Go to Guild Hall and get Ferried or B. Resign then go to Guild Hall and get to outpost (not confirmed, friend told me then leprekan said it here 3. Kill Mallyx 4. Get reward inside the mission 5. Ferrier goes to the guild hall 6. Other party members get quest 7. Go to Guild Hall 8. Ferrier takes you to the outpost 9. Ferrier gets quest 10. People go back to guild hall, to pick up the ferrier 11. Back to outpost 12. Repeat.

3 times per run. And if Anet is running their bans off "profit" rather than "times accessed outpost" we will be seeing alot of unbans next week.

When my friend told me that you could access it via resign, I immediately thought, "oh, so you can just try again." I hadn't been to Zellix or w/e his name again except for the quest reward/quest.

Btw, congrats Anya, I hope you get your account back. Even the hope of getting an account back right now is good enough for a congrats.

ok...
1- did not involve visiting forbidden outpost.
2- you get ferried to outpost. 1 time
3- kill Mallyx... you are in the area killing him, after being in the outpost 1 time.
4- get reward in mission, still in same area, still 1 time
5- Ferrier goes to GH ( rest of players I'm guessing may have /resigned and landed in post... so even though it's 2nd time there, I guess you can count it as First time for next run. To try and get to the 3 times, I will count it as First time in outpost for run # 2.
6- You go get the quest, I'm assuming in DoA, since that post has NO NPC's.
7- Go to the GH
8- Ferrier takes you to outpost.. so 2nd time there for Run #2
9- Ferrier gets the quest, so I'm guessing he leaves the party in the post while he goes to legit DoA and grab quest.
10- People go back to GH to pick up ferrier... that Means... all the times YOU went there... YOU were the one that went back to the GH to fetch him?? or the WHOLE Party did?? This makes no sense. You only NEED one player to ferry. If this was NOT your GH, why keep going back and forth? I mean it's not like there were districts.
11- Back to outpost, and yes if you all traveled as a group to pick uf the original ferry guy, it's 3 times.

so none of this seemed odd to you? Having to get a quest in a Normal post, to then go through all these steps to end up in a deserted post to go straight to kill Mallyx??

Frankly, Gaile's version makes more sense to me. You opened the chest 7 times, but ANET is also counting the times you went in there and did NOT kill Mallyx. Just because you didn't get his chest all the times you went in, doesn't mean they shouldn't count those visits.

Either way, if ANET were to establish a clear line as to HOW many times you can abuse an exploit before getting permanently banned... players that like shortcuts would find a way around it....

"but I ONLY did it 3 times with my ranger!! and 2 with my Monk, and 3 with my Necro!!!, I didn't know it was 3 times per account!!"

They may have let some things slide that needed to be addressed, like armbraces, I'm all for that, BUT those 117 and all the others that went in there, MOST of them KNEW this was fishy. They were hoping NOT to get caught, and thought if they did get caught the worst case scenario would be a 72 hr ban. Unfortunately for them... ANET has finally sent a LOUD and CLEAR message about cheating. "If you cheat, you MIGHT get caught. If you get caught, we MIGHT Perma Ban you. Before you decide to cheat and exploit the game... THINK TWICE!! "